[alfa] Re: Air conditioning question (No Alfa content)

[AlfaRs@xxxxxxx]

Joe,

I've read this paper also and don't necessary disagree with you.  As I alluded
to I may actually use this stuff myself in the future but I do think it's 
important
to give the whole story of the pros and cons (and possible risks) when making
recommendations.  When it comes to safety/enviroment I do think that people
need to do their research and make their own educated decision.  

A few other things about HCs. You are not likely to find anyone that can or
will reclaim this stuff so you are pretty much committed to vent it into the
atmosphere when you are doing any system maintenance (I know its natural
so it shouldn't be a problem) but If I remember right it's still illegal.  
And there
is a push mostly from freon manufactures) to have this stuff outlawed 
everywhere.

Just a short story.  About 10-12 years ago I had a friend that tried using a 
propane
HC in his diesel Jetta.  For some reason a hose burst while the car was 
idling.
He quickly shut the ignition off but the car kept running actually revving up 
to about
2500 RPM for a few seconds.  For him this was enough of a scare to stop using
it.  I just found it funny.

Dave McCrory
Maryville, TN
93' 164
87' Verde
87' Platinum
87' Gold
76' Spider

>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 03:09:48 -0400
>From: Joe Elliott <jee@domain.elided>
>Subject: [alfa] Re: Air conditioning question (No Alfa content)
>
>I've done the research.
>
>The refrigerants I advocate may be illegal in
>Arkansas, Arizona, Connecticut, Florida, Idaho,
>Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Louisiana, Maryland, North
>Dakota, Oklahoma, Texas, Utah, Virginia,
>Washington, Wisconsin, and the District of
>Columbia, but no one's going to pull you over and
>sample your refrigerant. Post-1972 headlight
>lens designs are also outlawed in several states,
>but that doesn't stop me from using them, because
>I'd rather get cited than die in an accident that
>could have been avoided.
>
>The fire risk is (like USA headlight laws) mostly
>BS. If you test pure refrigerants in a lab,
>you'll discover that R-134a has an autoignition
>temperature of 1411F, which is lower than the
>1585F at which the equivalent hydrocarbon
>refrigerant ignites. On the other hand,
>hydrocarbon refrigerants will ignite more readily
>in the presence of an open flame than will
>R-134a. But both of those facts are really
>beside the point. In your car's air conditioning
>system the refrigerant is mixed with flammable
>oil, and that's where the fire risk comes
>from--it's independent of your refrigerant
>choice. But don't take my [theoretical] word for
>it. See Colbourne, D., 1997, "Calor Gas Internal
>Appliance Fire Test Report." To make a long
>story short, he applied heat to two refrigerators
>using the two afformentioned refrigerants and
>concluded that in both cases "an intense fireball
>was produced
>Regardless of the type of
>refrigerant used, flame jets tended to die out
>rapidly and minor flames that remained were
>evidently burning residual compressor oil." Keep
>in mind that his control subject was a
>refrigerator using the technically non-flammable
>R-12, and still, "an intense fireball was
>produced." Given the explosive potential of all
>air conditioning oils, it's no surprise that the
>same guy (with T. J. Ritter) concluded in a 1998
>paper that "The conclusions...are that the use of
>hydrocarbon refrigerants does not significantly
>increase the potential for fires or fatalities."
>
>The only logical reason to choose R-134a is if
>you rely on professionals to service your air
>conditioning--it's true that most shops won't
>mess with anything besides the traditional R-12
>and R-134a.
>
>R-12 may last longer and work better than R-134a,
>but hydrocarbon refrigerants aren't any more
>likely to sneak through your hoses and seals than
i>s R-12. And they will cool your car just as
>effectively as R-12, while consuming less energy.
>(Last summer when I had a thermocouple in the
>car, I saw 4 degrees Celsius at the vents in my
>'82 GTV-6, on an 85 degree Fahrenheit day--the
>only modification besides the refrigerant was a
>Milano compressor.) For my money, the real
>beauty of hydrocarbon refrigerants is that
>they're indifferent to the oil you use in your
>compressor, are compatible with all compressors,
>hoses, and seals, and can even be mixed (albeit
>not legally) with traditional
>refrigerants--legalities aside, you don't
>actually have to *convert* anything to use a
>hydrocarbon refrigerant, so you can switch back
>any time you want.
>
>Just my two cents,
>Joe Elliott
--
to be removed from alfa, see /bin/digest-subs.cgi
or email "unsubscribe alfa" to majordomo@domain.elided